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Evidence for a Historical Jesus

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Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby E-lad » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:48 pm

Is the evidence for Jesus as good as the evidence for Caesar?

Richard Carrier says, "No."

https://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/7862
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby Milo » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:29 pm

I see this argument all the time. There is more evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar! than Alexander the Great! The claim that there are 42 sources for Jesus and only 10 for Tiberius has been totally demolished. Atheists and Christians alike have been guilty of assuming there are facts about Jesus, because everyone knows it. Someone on this board was vehemently against the idea that Jesus didn't exist because the consensus of experts says he did. When the consensus is examined, like Richard Carrier and others have done, it is revealed that the evidence for Jesus is shaky. People have assumed Jesus lived on earth because the evidence is rock solid. Well, it isn't. That doesn't prove Jesus was a myth but it is enough to question his existence.
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby BeamStalk » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:14 pm

The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
-Terry Pratchett, "Hogfather"
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby zilch » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:14 am

Yep. I think the chances that one or more persons were the basis for Jesus are good but not overwhelming. It's a sliding scale from biography to myth. But it's not that big a deal either way, unless Jesus is God, which I somehow doubt.
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby Milo » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:26 pm

I don't think there is any doubt that there was a belief in a Jewish celestial intermediate before Christianity. If there was a historical figure, I think it was merged with the celestial Jesus. Earliest written records show that Jesus was thought of as existing from the beginning, the agent of creation, etc. That's a bit much to bestow on a Jewish rabbi so soon after his death. I don't think gospel Jesus existed. There would have been more evidence of his existence if he did half the stuff recorded in the bible.
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby zilch » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:53 pm

Milo wrote: I don't think gospel Jesus existed. There would have been more evidence of his existence if he did half the stuff recorded in the bible.

Maybe He just withered the fig tree.
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby Milo » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:56 pm

The fig tree actually shows the allegorical nature of the gospel. It's part of a Markan sandwich.

13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

In between the two verses about the fig tree is a story about clearing out the temple. The fig tree episode has to be interpreted by the temple clearing. It's totally symbolic. Now if you are a Christian who takes the bible seriously, you might say, yes it is symbolic, that's why Jesus really actually cursed the tree so later we could figure out what he meant. But Mark was very clever about how he wrote it and the odds are he invented the story. When Matthew rewrites the story, he removes it from the context.

I know you already know all this, but this "miracle" is just another piece of evidence that the gospels were constructed not remembered history.
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Re: Evidence for a Historical Jesus

Postby BeamStalk » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:50 pm

Milo wrote:I don't think there is any doubt that there was a belief in a Jewish celestial intermediate before Christianity. If there was a historical figure, I think it was merged with the celestial Jesus. Earliest written records show that Jesus was thought of as existing from the beginning, the agent of creation, etc. That's a bit much to bestow on a Jewish rabbi so soon after his death. I don't think gospel Jesus existed. There would have been more evidence of his existence if he did half the stuff recorded in the bible.


I actually agree Milo
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