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Lessons in biblical archaeology

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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:40 pm

zilch wrote:Exactly. And, of course, a lot of the Bible really is a historical record, even if distorted and false in some places. Some of the descriptions, for instance of the Hittites, were thought to be myths and later shown to be true, so it cannot be doubted that there is at least a fair amount of historical truth in Scripture.


Actually zilch that's an urban myth.
You can check it out here: http://www.christianorigins.com/2005/02 ... itics.html

There were in fact two groups of Hittites. Allow me to quote the Anchor Bible Dictionary to explain
In the biblical references to the Hittites two different groups may be discerned. One is a local people of Palestine, settled in the area around Hebron before Abraham’s arrival, the descendants of Canaan through the eponymous ancestors of Heth. They lived in the heart of the land promised to the Israelites, so that God had to expressly command the Israelites to destroy them. That they were not eradicated but continued to inhabit southern Palestine, including the area around Jerusalem, may be seen in the references to Hittites in the Hebrew army, as forced labour conscripts, or as possible wives for the Hebrews, all the way through to the return from the Babylonian exile. Almost all the references of Hittites in the Old Testament fit into this picture of a local Canaanite people never quite eradicated in the Hebrew conquest of Canaan.

There are five references to Hittites which do not fit with this picture. The reference in Joshua 1:4 to the area around the Euphrates as the Hittite country cannot be the Hittites of Hebron, but rather, depending on the dating of the conquest, either the Hittite Empire’s territories in North Syria or the successor Neo-Hittite Kingdoms in that region.

The reference in Judges 1:26 to the man who after betraying Bethel goes to the ‘land of the Hittites’, the only other occurrence of this phrase besides the Joshua 1:4 passage, it is quite possible that the Neo-Hittite area is meant.

The references to the ‘Kings of the Hittites’ in 1 Kings 10:29 and 2 Chronicles 1:17, where they are importing horses and chariots from Solomon, and 2 Kings 7:6, in which their very name causes the Syrian army to flee, again inply a powerful and wealthy group of Kings, not a local Canaanite people who had been reduced by the conquest and enslaved by Solomon. Again the Neo-Hittite Kingdoms fit perfectly, the chronology is right, they were in the same area as the Syrians and the plural ‘kings’ fits very well with the nature of these states, which were not unified into a polity, but consisted of a number of small kingdoms.

Also, just a word on the ‘Neo-Hittites’, these are not the Hittites of Anatolia either, ‘yet the language and the religion of these ‘Neo-Hittites’ inscriptions are not those of the Hittites of Hattusas, nor are they those of the common people who inhabited Syria under the Hittite Empire (for they were Hurrians). (O R Gurney, The Hittites, page 40. Penguin Books Ltd, Middlesex 1952)
Last edited by Chris on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:45 pm

pUREiNTENT wrote:
Chris wrote:There's just a few problems with your assertion. The entire nation of Egypt. :D

Problem 1: The economy of Egypt.
According to the book of Exodus a quarter of the population of Egypt just got up and walked out. This would drive the economy of Egypt through the floor. Trouble is this particular era was one of the most prosperous in Egypt's ancient history.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html


Your famous expert is described as
David Henry Lewis, DCNZM (1917 - 23 October 2002) was a sailor, adventurer, doctor, and Polynesian scholar.


So not even a historian much less an archaeologist. If you want to contradict people like John Romer who is not only an archaeologist but an Egyptologist at least quote someone credible.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby Chris » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm

pUREiNTENT wrote:
shadowmouse wrote:Yammering off the usual tripe by rote.

How about providing links to legitimate examples by actual archeologists? AKA nothing by AIG/ICR/creotard sites


One's legitimate is another's unacceptable... belief in God does nothing to diminish your educational standing or credentials. There are numerous Biblical Archeologists out there if one wants to find cred.

"What comes to mind when we think about God is the most important thing about us." AW Tozer


No more like we don't particularly appreciate the words of proven liars and frauds such as those of AIG/ICR fame et al.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby zilch » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:19 pm

Thanks for straightening me out, Chris. I'm sure there are some outright historical mistakes in the Bible, too, not even including the magic stuff. But nemesis's point remains: even if all the historical, nonmagical stuff were true, that would not be any sort of evidence for the truth of the God claims.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby E-lad » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:01 am

zilch wrote:Thanks for straightening me out, Chris. I'm sure there are some outright historical mistakes in the Bible, too, not even including the magic stuff. But nemesis's point remains: even if all the historical, nonmagical stuff were true, that would not be any sort of evidence for the truth of the God claims.


So, we can now move on to the Flood Myth. There is absolutely no evidence for the kind of flood as described in the bible, or for the Babel Myth, or the Jonah Fish Tale. It's all hokey.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby pUREiNTENT » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:38 am

shadowmouse wrote:Classic immature avoidance of legitimate discussion.

Puking platitudes.


Classic immature projection
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby pUREiNTENT » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:42 am

nemesis wrote:Archeology cannot prove the Bible. If the Bible were only an historical record of the Jewish people, then archaeology could provide some confirmation of the historical accuracy of the events described. Nothing in the Bible relating to what God did or said can be confirmed by archaeology.


Actually your entire statement is wrong. In fact, I can't tell if you are showing ignorance of fact here, or just plain making this up. Of course there has been proof of Biblical events found in archaeology.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby shadowmouse » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:47 am

pUREiNTENT wrote:
shadowmouse wrote:Classic immature avoidance of legitimate discussion.

Puking platitudes.


Classic immature projection


Yes, you do that very well too, princess.
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby shadowmouse » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:50 am

pUREiNTENT wrote:
nemesis wrote:Archeology cannot prove the Bible. If the Bible were only an historical record of the Jewish people, then archaeology could provide some confirmation of the historical accuracy of the events described. Nothing in the Bible relating to what God did or said can be confirmed by archaeology.


Actually your entire statement is wrong. In fact, I can't tell if you are showing ignorance of fact here, or just plain making this up. Of course there has been proof of Biblical events found in archaeology.


Oh, my.

Examples? Links? Oh riiiiight, you don't have diddly.
"Get smart and I'll fuck you over -- sayeth The Lord."
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Re: Lessons in biblical archaeology

Postby pUREiNTENT » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:03 am

Chris wrote:Let's deal with your claims one at a time shall we PI?


Yes... let us deal with your claims as well.

Since the hittite spies were supposed to report on any weakening of Egyptian military strength such a non-report was NOT a common occurence. You just pulled that 'fact' out or your arse.


How do you know that Hittite spies were supposed to do any of what you claim? Did you read about this from ancient texts and accept it as fact? Ancient historical documents? Did somebody that is alive today travel back in time to figure all this out? Or was it passed down by oration until written down more recently? And you believe this but don't believe over 60 texts written by around 40 authors? Wow... way to accept that which supports your argument and deny that which doesn't.

Problem 3: The plagues.
Once again if the plagues actually happened then the Egyptian economy would have been ruined. Since this didn't happen then we may deduce that there were no biblical plagues.


How do you know this? Did today's economists travel back in time to determine what the economy was like back then and they know that these plagues would have wiped out the economy of Egypt? Or are they presupposing based on how economy works today and pitting that against similar plagues like we have today? Oh yeah... there aren't any.

First it is hardly conjecture to state the obvious. Ancient societies in general but Egypt in particular were agrarian. They relied upon the production of grain. Destroy that and you have severely disrupted their economy. Not only that but Egyptian religion would have been given a body blow by the death of the eldest child whose job in Egyptian society was to assure the well being of his parents in the next life. By killing off the eldest child it basically ensures the parents will starve or cease to exist in the next life according to Egyptian belief.

Next your site quotes copiously from a papyrus and asserts that it comes from the time of the exodus. Garbage!


Hello, Kettle... you're black!!! All of your assumptions are based on artifacts and texts from the past, yet you condemn others that do the same.

Allow me to quote wikipedia here... The papyrus itself (Papyrus Leiden I 344) is a copy made during the New Kingdom of Egypt.[1] The dating of the original composition of the poem is disputed, but several scholars have suggested a date between the late 6th dynasty and the Second Intermediate Period (ca. 1850 BCE-1600 BCE),[4] and appears to describe how the Hyksos took over Egypt.[5] [6] The theme of this work had previously been taken either as a lament inspired by the supposed chaos of the First Intermediate Period,[5] or as a plea to Pepi II Neferkare depicting the fall of the Old Kingdom.

Notice two points?
1) It was written long before the exodus according to several scholars.
2) It describes an earlier period and NOT the exodus.
3) Finally I haven't written my doctoral dissertation but I studied under those who have concerning Egypt, especially during the New Kingdom period.


LOL... Wikipedia... kind of like everything the internet says is true...

I could keep going, but this is tiresome and offers no end in site. I would, however, suggest that you stop arguing that which you do yourself.
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