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Sye the Douchebag

A place to talk about specific theists and our interactions with 'em. Should we engage or dismiss? Are there effective strategies?

Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:43 pm

rhiggs wrote:The same way you do.

By, or through, revelation from God???

You are just denying the truth.

How do you know?

Convenient

How so?
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby Benjamin Franklin » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:49 pm

SyeTenB wrote:
rhiggs wrote:Could you do us all a favour and ask God to reveal to you how he does this?


I could, but I won't.


I can, and I did. God told me you are a douchebag. Are you saying God is wrong?
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby BeamStalk » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:51 pm

The bag of chipmunks was too loud, so I dumped them in a river. I will now search for the elusive Die Fledermaus.
The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby ExPatMatt » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:14 pm

SyeTenB wrote:
Hey Matt,

I appreciate the kind tone of your question. I realize that the kind of philosophical logic talk can be quite thick, and I hope that my book will serve to put things into a language that is more for the average person (like myself).


No problem. Good luck with the book!

You did write a lot so I'll just focus on this chunk, if you don't mind...

SyeTenB wrote:God reveals things in many ways to us such that we can be certain of its truth. Romans 1: 18-21 talks of how God has revealed the truth of His existence to all of us in nature, such that we are without excuse for denying Him.


Like I said, that's a claim of the Bible, not of nature itself though, isn't it? It's not like there are mountains with God's name etched across them that just make it blatantly obvious who did it, is there? So you'd have to accept that the Bible is truly the inerrant Word of God when it says the God is real (and He made everything).

SyeTenB wrote:When it comes to justification of His revelation though, we must resort to His revealed Word.


Ok, we've got some common ground here - excellent!


SyeTenB wrote:As I was explaining to GE and Quasar though, ALL ultimate authority claims have a necessary element of circularity to them, but not all (read only one) are valid. For example, when you say: "You can't really claim 'Creation' as a revelation of truth because the only thing that ties it to the God of the Bible is...the Bible," my response would be: "Why can't I?" At this point you would appeal to the laws of logic, and it is at that point that I would ask you to justify the laws of logic according to your worldview.


Why would I have to do that? You're making a claim, isn't it up to you to justify it according to your worldview? Maybe I can't 'justify' why circular reasoning is inherently wrong according to my worldview, but I think we can both agree that, on a functional level, it isn't a very convincing way to present an argument, right? So, regardless of my (in)ability to 'justify' the origin of logic in my worldview, we still both have to apply logic to our arguments because that's how humans share ideas (otherwise it's Matrix/Head-in-a-jar time!).

So, why can you claim that Creation is a valid revelation of God's existence when really all you're relying on is your belief that the Bible is what it says it is?



SyeTenB wrote:When you attempt to do so (if you would, as you have seen people are not keen to do so), you would see the vicious circularity of your position (in that you would assume the validity of the laws of logic, your senses, and reasoning, in order to prove the validity of the laws of logic, your senses, and reasoning).


Don't we ALL assume a respectable ability to utilize logical thought in our day to day lives? You're saying that I'm not allowed to breath unless I can tell you exactly how lungs function and where they came from (except I'm not allowed to take a breath with which to explain it to you). Is this not just a semantic trap?

You clearly utilized logical thought to arrive at your current position, no?


SyeTenB wrote:The difference in our position, however, is that we do not say "The Bible is true, because the Bible is true" but more along the lines of: "The Bible is true because it first makes the claim that it is true, proves itself internally, AND denial of the truth of the Bible leads to absurdity."


I'll agree that the Bible claims that it is true. But how does it 'prove' itself internally? By what standard do you measure this proving? For the third one, do you assume that AFTER you've established the first two or is it just something to say when you can't justify the second one? ;)



SyeTenB wrote:It is also the claim of the Christian that God reveals the truth of His Word to us directly such that we can be certain of it (and no, I don't know how He does this).


Magic?

SyeTenB wrote:The atheist, on the other hand, cannot appeal to a realm outside of the one they are dealing in, making their claim viciously circular.


Would it not be quite consistent to only appeal to a 'realm' that we are all privy to? Makes sense to me.

SyeTenB wrote:For example, if I ask the atheist how they know that their senses and reasoning are valid, they cannot say: "Because we were made in the image of God," because they deny God. All they are left with is: "I sense and reason that my senses and reasoning are valid." When you ask them how they know that the laws of logic are valid, they cannot appeal to the perfect nature, and character of God, but end up saying something like: "I use logic to determine the validity of logic." You see, when I pose those types of questions to atheists, they usually don't like it, say that I am playing tricks on them, call me a liar, post threads calling me a 'douchebag,' and rarely, if ever, answer them.' I don't have any problem with that, as it is not my job to convert anyone, and I expect that kind of response from people who wish to remain in their sin, and not submit to the only One who can forgive them of their sins, save their reasoning now, and save their souls for eternity.


I'm not sure that 'validity' is all that important. I know plenty of people who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag, but they can still hold down a job and raise kids - as far as survival is concerned; job done.

I can only use the mind I've got and I have to assume that it works well enough to interpret the data it receives in a competent enough way to get me through the day. If I didn't then I wouldn't be able to function as a human being.



SyeTenB wrote:Yes, I have read many of your posts over the internet over the years, and I see your stark opposition to my worldview, but I submit that if you resorted to reason, you would find that your problem with Christianity would not be, in fact could not be, an intellectual one.


Again, you're assuming that I can't reason just because I don't agree with your explanation of where the ability to reason comes from. I don't get how that is useful.

Anyway, thanks for the in-depth response, it cleared a few things up for me. I'll let you guys get back to it!

SyeTenB wrote:Cheers,

Sye


Cheers,
"In the game of chess you can never let your adversary see your pieces. " - Zapp Brannigan
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby rhiggs » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:25 pm

By, or through, revelation from God???


No :D


How do you know?


Because you are lying about your revelations. :D



To answer your previous question though:

How do you know ANYTHING for that matter?


As I keep telling you, it's an irrelevant question. You must already know how to know things in order to know anything, including, in your case, whatever it is you think you know about God. :D


Sye: It is also the claim of the Christian that God reveals the truth of His Word to us directly such that we can be certain of it (and no, I don't know how He does this).

Me: Could you do us all a favour and ask God to reveal to you how he does this?

Sye: I could, but I won't.

Me: Convenient

Sye: How so?


Convenient way for you to not answer the question. :D

Why won't you ask him and tell us? :D

Your refusal to ask him how he reveals things for certain means you could potentially know - all you have to do is ask, but you just choose not to. Call me cynical, but is there any chance you simply have no answer to my question, or should I say there is no answer since it is all a big lie anyway, and you are now claiming that you won't ask God to cover up this lie? :D
Last edited by rhiggs on Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby E-lad » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:35 pm

Sye has ventured into the lion's territory. He ambles through....and then....Chaos.......

Sye,
Hey, ol' buddy. You taking nourishment? Haven't broken a hip yet, I hope. I'm fairly healthy, in case you wonder.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby E-lad » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:46 pm

Sye,
It is apparent that you are getting a bit long in the tooth. I am sure you will agree with that. So am I.

And now after over a year of interfacing with you on several different venues, you still walk around banging your annoying and most atrocious sounding drum. Bang. Bang. Bang. Bang. Not a modicum of rationality have you expressed.

Do you know of all the wonders of education and the value of our collective inquisitivness?

What the fuck is the matter with you, Sye? You want a Theocracy. I know that because you told ne that. I can prove it.

You want to teach creationism in place of valid science, and you think that if we do this, we will end up with a better world.

I rest my case.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:40 pm

ExPatMatt wrote:No problem. Good luck with the book!


Thanks for the sentiment, but I don’t believe in luck. ;)

Like I said, that's a claim of the Bible, not of nature itself though, isn't it?


Yes, it is a claim of the Bible, but the claim is that God is evident in His creation such that suppression of the truth of His existence leaves one without excuse.

It's not like there are mountains with God's name etched across them that just make it blatantly obvious who did it, is there?


Technically no, but effectively, yes.

Why would I have to do that? You're making a claim, isn't it up to you to justify it according to your worldview?


Well, we both use logic, so we should justify it according to our respective worldviews. I have done so numerous times according to my worldview, I have yet to have anyone do so according to their non-theistic worldviews.

Maybe I can't 'justify' why circular reasoning is inherently wrong according to my worldview, but I think we can both agree that, on a functional level, it isn't a very convincing way to present an argument, right?


Well, proof has nothing to do with persuasion, but on a functional level, virtuous circularity is necessary in presenting an argument for one's ultimate authority, whereas vicious circularity is devastating.

So, regardless of my (in)ability to 'justify' the origin of logic in my worldview, we still both have to apply logic to our arguments because that's how humans share ideas (otherwise it's Matrix/Head-in-a-jar time!).


Yes, that’s how we share ideas, however, not only can the atheist not account for logic, the elements of logic do not comport with ANY atheistic worldview. It’s like saying “We both use cars to get around, so never mind that the existence of cars does not comport with my worldview, drive!”

So, why can you claim that Creation is a valid revelation of God's existence when really all you're relying on is your belief that the Bible is what it says it is?


No, creation itself is a valid revelation of God’s existence, that fact is merely justified in His Word.

Don't we ALL assume a respectable ability to utilize logical thought in our day to day lives?


Yes, but it is the basis of that assumption that matters.

You're saying that I'm not allowed to breath unless I can tell you exactly how lungs function and where they came from (except I'm not allowed to take a breath with which to explain it to you). Is this not just a semantic trap?


No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m basically saying that we are both breathing, yet your worldview does not comport with the existence of air.

You clearly utilized logical thought to arrive at your current position, no?


Some yes, some no. Some knowledge is innate, and some is derived through the God given laws of logic, and our God given senses and reasoning. I never claim that atheists do not or cannot reason, just that they cannot account for what they are doing, and that reasoning does not in fact comport with their worldviews.

I'll agree that the Bible claims that it is true. But how does it 'prove' itself internally? By what standard do you measure this proving? For the third one, do you assume that AFTER you've established the first two or is it just something to say when you can't justify the second one? ;)


I would say that no one can come to see the truth of the Bible through autonomous reasoning, as that would put one’s ability to reason above the validity of the Bible, so no, the third one comes first. With the presupposition that the Bible is NOT what it claims to be, then, while the first two are true, they cannot be attained. The Bible proves itself internally in that it makes sense of reality, and denial of the truth contained within the Bible leads to absurdity (since logic and reasoning would have no foundation), but again, one needs to give up their autonomous presuppositions to accept those facts. You see, people would rather say that they do not need to account for logic, and deny their absurd position, than accept what the Bible says about them.

Magic?


No, I would not call it an ‘illusory feat.’ I am more of the position that even if God did explain it to me, I would not be able to understand it.

Would it not be quite consistent to only appeal to a 'realm' that we are all privy to? Makes sense to me.


Not when it comes to justifying one’s ultimate authority, as that would result in vicious circularity, i.e. “I reason that my reasoning is valid,” besides, we ARE all ‘privy to’ that realm, some just deny that.

I'm not sure that 'validity' is all that important. I know plenty of people who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag, but they can still hold down a job and raise kids - as far as survival is concerned; job done.


Could they do this though, without assuming that their senses and reasoning are valid? Problem is, the non-theist has ZERO basis for this assumption.

I can only use the mind I've got and I have to assume that it works well enough to interpret the data it receives in a competent enough way to get me through the day. If I didn't then I wouldn't be able to function as a human being.


EXACTLY, but what is the basis for that assumption? I’m not asking what you could or could not do WITHOUT that assumption, I’m asking what you base the assumption upon?

Again, you're assuming that I can't reason just because I don't agree with your explanation of where the ability to reason comes from. I don't get how that is useful.


No, I believe that you can and do reason, just that you deny the source of your ability to do so, and that denial affects all areas of your reasoning.

Anyway, thanks for the in-depth response, it cleared a few things up for me. I'll let you guys get back to it!


Okay, who are you, and what have you done with Matt? :D

Cheers,

Sye
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:49 pm

rhiggs wrote:No :D


So then we do not attain knowledge the same way. Okay, how are you able to know ANYTHING according to YOUR worldview then?

Because you are lying about your revelations. :D


How do you know?

As I keep telling you, it's an irrelevant question. You must already know how to know things in order to know anything, including, in your case, whatever it is you think you know about God. :D


How do you know? If you think that how one is able to know what they know is an irrelevant question, might I suggest you do some study in the field of epistemology.

Convenient way for you to not answer the question. :D Why won't you ask him and tell us? :D


I defer to Deuteronomy 6: 16. God is not the one on trial who needs to answer how He does things, and I hope and pray that you come to accept this fact before you meet Him face to face.

Cheers,

Sye
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:50 pm

E-lad wrote:Hey, ol' buddy. You taking nourishment? Haven't broken a hip yet, I hope. I'm fairly healthy, in case you wonder.


Hip's fine Dale, thanks for asking ;) (And no, sorry, I'm not at all wondering :D
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