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Sye the Douchebag

A place to talk about specific theists and our interactions with 'em. Should we engage or dismiss? Are there effective strategies?

Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:27 pm

Jill D wrote:
it is my position that that which is known to be certain must, by definition, be true.


Have you ever been mistaken?

Yes, but never with respect to the authenticity of God's revelation.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby Benjamin Franklin » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:41 pm

SyeTenB wrote:
Jill D wrote:
it is my position that that which is known to be certain must, by definition, be true.


Have you ever been mistaken?

Yes, but never with respect to the authenticity of God's revelation.


Sye, you are merely deluded in your assumptions and your presumptions.
I know this because God told me so.

By the way, He does know you. When I mentioned you to Him, He said "Oh, that douchebag?"

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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:06 pm

ExPatMatt wrote:Hey Sye,

I don't normally get involved in these presup threads because I'm very much a layman when it comes to philosophy or the kind of logic you guys talk about. I do have a question though (although you may have answered it before, I'd like to know).

You say that God has 'revealed' things to you (us?) in such a way that you (we?) can be certain they are true. How is this done? What are God's methods of relaying this revelation to us?

As far as I can see, you've got the Bible. You can't really claim 'Creation' as a revelation of truth because the only thing that ties it to the God of the Bible is...the Bible.

So what is it? Is the Bible the method by which God has revealed things such that we can be certain they are true?

Cheers,


Hey Matt,

I appreciate the kind tone of your question. I realize that the kind of philosophical logic talk can be quite thick, and I hope that my book will serve to put things into a language that is more for the average person (like myself).

God reveals things in many ways to us such that we can be certain of its truth. Romans 1: 18-21 talks of how God has revealed the truth of His existence to all of us in nature, such that we are without excuse for denying Him. When it comes to justification of His revelation though, we must resort to His revealed Word. As I was explaining to GE and Quasar though, ALL ultimate authority claims have a necessary element of circularity to them, but not all (read only one) are valid. For example, when you say: "You can't really claim 'Creation' as a revelation of truth because the only thing that ties it to the God of the Bible is...the Bible," my response would be: "Why can't I?" At this point you would appeal to the laws of logic, and it is at that point that I would ask you to justify the laws of logic according to your worldview. When you attempt to do so (if you would, as you have seen people are not keen to do so), you would see the vicious circularity of your position (in that you would assume the validity of the laws of logic, your senses, and reasoning, in order to prove the validity of the laws of logic, your senses, and reasoning).


The difference in our position, however, is that we do not say "The Bible is true, because the Bible is true" but more along the lines of: "The Bible is true because it first makes the claim that it is true, proves itself internally, AND denial of the truth of the Bible leads to absurdity." It is also the claim of the Christian that God reveals the truth of His Word to us directly such that we can be certain of it (and no, I don't know how He does this). The atheist, on the other hand, cannot appeal to a realm outside of the one they are dealing in, making their claim viciously circular. For example, if I ask the atheist how they know that their senses and reasoning are valid, they cannot say: "Because we were made in the image of God," because they deny God. All they are left with is: "I sense and reason that my senses and reasoning are valid." When you ask them how they know that the laws of logic are valid, they cannot appeal to the perfect nature, and character of God, but end up saying something like: "I use logic to determine the validity of logic." You see, when I pose those types of questions to atheists, they usually don't like it, say that I am playing tricks on them, call me a liar, post threads calling me a 'douchebag,' and rarely, if ever, answer them.' I don't have any problem with that, as it is not my job to convert anyone, and I expect that kind of response from people who wish to remain in their sin, and not submit to the only One who can forgive them of their sins, save their reasoning now, and save their souls for eternity.

You see Matt, I've written quite a bit in my response to you, and just watch how my response is met by your 'friends' here. I have never called any of them any names (perhaps only using the ones they first called me back at them in jest), but they will most assuredly not want to carry on a rational worldview discussion, but rather try to pick apart what I have written, and call me more names.

Don't get me wrong though Matt, there are a lot of so-called Christians out there, who are an embarassment to their worldview, and I'm sure I would side with many of you in deriding their message. Even though we exchange many barbs in these threads, I have no doubt that I would get along with most of you in person. I have a lot of fun with my atheist friends in person, and none of them resort to the tactics which many present here, and I trust that those here also would not do that in person. In fact, if you ever had a weareSMRT convention, I'd love to attend :D

Yes, I have read many of your posts over the internet over the years, and I see your stark oposition to my worldview, but I submit that if you resorted to reason, you would find that your problem with Christianity would not be, in fact could not be, an intellectual one.

Cheers,

Sye
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby IntellectualNinja » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:15 pm

Sye, how do you account for God? Why should God exist in the first place? Why isn't there just nothingness?

I anxiously await your non-answer. :D
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:28 pm

IntellectualNinja wrote:Sye, how do you account for God? Why should God exist in the first place? Why isn't there just nothingness?

I anxiously await your non-answer. :D


See Kaitlyn, I really don't know why you take that attitude with me? We have always been civil, and I think have even exchanged some kinder PMs in the past. Perhaps you feel more comfortable taking that tone with me, but I do not find it to be productive.

It is the Christian position that God is eternal, and is in fact beyond time. The question of nothingness does not enter the equation for the Christian, as eternality comports with our worldview. The question of something vs. nothing is actually a problem for the non-theist, and I'd throw it back at you, but somehow I get the feeling that you are not in the mood to respond.

Cheers,

Sye
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby rhiggs » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:22 pm

Interesting article here

Now it seems to me that anyone can imagine an invisible magic being, claim that its nature does not change, and insist that the laws of logic “reflect” its unchanging nature. I could, for example, fantasize that the laws of logic reflect the nature of Blarko the Wonderbeing, whose nature is "unchanging and unchangeable." Of course, this would be mere fantasy at this point, completely baseless, and utterly at odds with reality. And while it seems that presuppositionalists provide essentially nothing better than this, they insist that their god is not imaginary and that logic in fact requires (“demands” as one apologist puts it) the existence of an “immaterial” being which could only be the Christian god. Unfortunately, however, the apologists have given no substantial reason to suppose that their god is something other than a fantasy. Instead of TAG – i.e., the “transcendental argument for the existence of God” – apologists have in fact served up a rendition of FAG - i.e., the fantastical assertion of the existence of God. For in the final analysis, it is fundamental to Christianity that the distinction between reality and imagination be blurred, and if you scratch the chest-pounding surface of presuppositionalism, you’ll find that there is ultimately no argument here to begin with.



The point being that simply having an alleged account for something and proclaiming it to be certain has no bearing on whether you are actually correct, no matter how many times you repeat it, even if no competing accounts are given...
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby rhiggs » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:26 pm

Sye said

It is also the claim of the Christian that God reveals the truth of His Word to us directly such that we can be certain of it (and no, I don't know how He does this).


Could you do us all a favour and ask God to reveal to you how he does this?

Of course, he could still simply be fooling you, but it will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

Cheers :D
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:28 pm

rhiggs wrote:The point being that simply having an alleged account for something and proclaiming it to be certain has no bearing on whether you are actually correct, no matter how many times you repeat it, even if no competing accounts are given...


Whether or not I agree with your statement, how do you now this? How do you know ANYTHING for that matter?
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby SyeTenB » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:29 pm

rhiggs wrote:Could you do us all a favour and ask God to reveal to you how he does this?


I could, but I won't.
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Re: Sye the Douchebag

Postby rhiggs » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:32 pm

SyeTenB wrote:
rhiggs wrote:The point being that simply having an alleged account for something and proclaiming it to be certain has no bearing on whether you are actually correct, no matter how many times you repeat it, even if no competing accounts are given...


Whether or not I agree with your statement, how do you now this? How do you know ANYTHING for that matter?



The same way you do. You are just denying the truth.




SyeTenB wrote:
rhiggs wrote:Could you do us all a favour and ask God to reveal to you how he does this?


I could, but I won't.



LOL

Convenient

:lol:
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